Make It Mindful: Insights for Global Learning

Seth Fleischauer (00:00.9)
Hello everyone and welcome to Make It Mindful, the podcast that challenges outdated ideas in education and digs into what really moves learning forward. As classrooms become more diverse, global skills more essential, and demands on teachers more overwhelming, how do we prepare students for a world that's constantly evolving without burning out educators? My name is Seth Fleishauer. I am a former classroom teacher turned founder of an international education company that specializes in global learning.

And today what we're going to focus on, the big question is, can schools balance global learning, literacy, and SEL without overloading teachers? Many educators struggle with these ideas like, how do I teach critical thinking and independence when I barely have time to cover the basics? Can we develop students' character in SEL without sacrificing academic rigor?

How do we honor local cultures while preparing students for a globalized world? All of these things are what we are going to dive into with today's guest, Miles Madison. Miles, thank you for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

Miles (01:02.36)
Thank you, thanks for having me. I feel honored to have been invited.

Seth Fleischauer (01:05.572)
So, Miles is an expert in literacy, character education, and SEL with global perspectives. Through his work with Aaron Kent Consulting and EffectiveClassrooms.org, he helps international schools develop strategies that empower both students and teachers without adding to their workload. I love the story of who you are and how you got to where you are, which is something that you shared with me the first time that we met here a couple months ago.

I'm hoping that you can just kind of start there. Like, how did you find yourself living in Germany, traveling to Mexico with a place in Spain that you go to sometimes? I mean, you're like, you're like an international man of mystery, just helping the world learn. It's fantastic. How did you, how did you pull that off?

Miles (01:48.95)
You

Miles (01:54.342)
A whole bunch of, what is the old fashioned words? Like pluck and luck or something like that. I don't know. Yeah, mean, you know, dialing it backwards. So 28 now years ago, I mistakenly was pushed into the teaching field by a friend and colleague at the time. thought I was gonna do environmental law. And while I...

Seth Fleischauer (01:59.351)
Hahaha!

Seth Fleischauer (02:13.559)
You

Miles (02:19.566)
was miserably studying for the LSAT and failed miserably. She was helping me and she, anyway, she suggested that I apply to a program that did Teach for America, which was a program just starting, it was 1997. And yeah, and so I got, ah, did you?

Seth Fleischauer (02:32.3)
Yeah, yeah, I did New York City teaching fellows. So some similar thing, but yeah, just for New York City.

Miles (02:38.124)
So yeah, I fell into that. I did it and then I fell in love with it instantly. so I, and I taught, was actually funny enough, I was placed in a fifth grade classroom and the other colleague that I was placed with was a female and placed in the kindergarten and both of us cried and we were like, can we please change? And they let us.

Seth Fleischauer (02:50.061)
Me too.

Seth Fleischauer (03:01.868)
No way, you just swapped classes?

Miles (03:03.488)
Yeah, mean, it was Oakland, the principal's kind of like, if you're breathing and you're in a room, we're good. it's terrible. But anyway, and so, yeah, so I started teaching kindergarten and I just loved it. I stayed at my school seven years. yeah, and then, and in that time kind of developed my passion, love for early literacy. So I went to a postgraduate program.

Seth Fleischauer (03:08.259)
I taught there too, just in New York, yeah.

Miles (03:29.526)
Stanford one year program in early literacy development with a really focus on phonics. And this was kind of like right at the, I don't know, the beginning peaks of like whole language. And I was definitely not popular because I was like, they have to know the letters, like what's happening? No, no, I was like secretly being like, it's an But I was really interested. I kind of like, I did, I kind of went down the rabbit hole and it still is like.

Seth Fleischauer (03:46.098)
you weren't allowed to say that back then.

Miles (03:58.188)
that fast forward to now that is like a lot of what I do with Aaron Kent is that I am kind of like the phonics guy. But so I kind of I studied how language, you how we learn basically the sounds and symbols of graphemes and morphemes and then but then I don't know, I for multiple personal and political reasons felt a little frustrated and wanted to leave. So my partner and I ended up we I got a job in the International School of Brussels, which is

European international school, very large, incredibly established and very wealthy. And so I found myself on the opposite end of extremes basically. And I had a lot of assumptions, you I think when I went into that, thought, well, I have a color printer in my room and a class size is limited to 14 and I have a full-time assistant. So this is going to be easy. And I quickly learned I also have 13 languages and you know, 14 cultures and...

Seth Fleischauer (04:52.452)
Yeah.

Miles (04:55.854)
and a lot of wealth, which led to some of the similar kind of family needs I found, interestingly enough. But so then I was there for 10 years, actually. So I stayed a really long time and I developed in leadership skills. I did coaching and I developed and ran a mentoring program for the whole school for new and experienced teachers and kind of kept that through line of literacy, but

at the end of my time there, I had, I was, did a master's degree at the university of Birmingham, in the UK where it was focused on character education. So it was really about, it was a mass MED, but in character ed, which was their way of kind of saying, I mean, my crass way would say everything that happens at school. That's not academic, right? Which statistically is about like So things like, how do we, you know, how do we display and model discipline?

How do we show our values? How do we transmit our values and what we believe? And what are our cultural biases? And all of the stuff that happens at school is things like schedule setting, but it sets a tone, right? Anyway, so I got really involved in that. And when I finished that program, I then moved to Berlin, where I'm currently at. And I came to just teach. I was like, I just want to teach again. I had been doing so many other things.

So I came here and I began teaching at an international school here, mid-sized, at the Berlin Metropolitan School. And I lasted three years as a teacher and then I couldn't help myself and ended up doing social and emotional coordination. I worked with the counselors a lot and we tried to develop a social and emotional program in-house in school. And I also was the literacy coach because I just can't help myself.

So yeah, and that's it. then two years ago, I stepped into this role with Aaron Kent Consulting, where I've been now two years, and with my literacy hat on, that's how I approached the work, that I have a specialty in early literacy development. And that's what Aaron Kent Consulting's focus is. And I just have found myself in that role more and more realizing that those two things are so combined.

Miles (07:13.9)
I mean, I'm working with schools and developing their literacy programs, but as I go to schools and I work with teachers and I work in classrooms, I find that without kind of efficient systems, without organization, and I'm not talking classroom management, like I'm not, which is traditionally like, you know, bagged as like, you know, discipline or rules or whatever. I just mean like efficiency of systems and kind of like rituals and routines that happen in the classroom, that like without those things, it doesn't matter, like what you do.

And the number one complaint I hear from every teacher on every continent where I have now been and can really affirmly say if you ask any teacher anywhere what they don't have enough of, it's Everywhere. Every grade level, every subject, everywhere. And so that has just sparked my interest in, well, let's save it. Let's figure out where it goes. How can we maximize it?

Seth Fleischauer (08:11.78)
Yeah. First of all, I hear so many parts of my own story in your story. I think this is why we get along so well. But especially that polar shift of like going from one end of an educational extreme to the other and finding that you're just swapping one set of issues for another. I there's no easy teaching job if you're doing it right, I should say.

Miles (08:19.224)
Yeah.

Miles (08:29.166)
Hmm.

Miles (08:32.846)
Mm.

You

Seth Fleischauer (08:38.48)
I do want to jump into this idea of rituals, routines, efficiencies, some of the things that happen on this podcast. I talk to people and we identify these things that are the big background thing that enables all the other things to happen. A lot of times it is about like emotional climate or like some executive functioning was one of these things that come up. But with you, the focus is rituals, routines, efficiency of systems. It's like they're kind of different ways of getting at the same thing, which is

Miles (08:52.718)
Mm.

Miles (09:07.501)
Mm.

Seth Fleischauer (09:08.28)
kind of a mindful approach to what you're doing, creating some more intentionality to all of your processes. But you have this tagline for administrators, what if you never heard your teachers say they don't have enough time? I love that. It's a great value prop. It's super compelling. But I want to know what are some specific strategies that you teach to help educators maximize their time?

Miles (09:12.11)
Mm-hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (09:34.596)
while fostering deeper learning for students. do you do what you do?

Miles (09:37.646)
Well, you know, it is a good tagline, I gotta say. I'm sorry, but I thought, you know, I, I just, thought of that, I was like, you how can, what do I, what do I want to explain about what I'm doing? And it really, was like, if you know, you hear it everywhere and I was like, what if you never heard it anymore? But I get into the cross, like, you know, it's, is a bit facetious, but it really is true. so as I've analyzed or I've really, I don't know, as I've dug into thinking about

what's happening there in that time crunch, basically that feeling of time crunch. I think the number one thing to say is, of course, it comes from a place of love and care, right? mean, teachers are caring and loving, and they want to do the best by their students. And so there's this, it always comes with a sense of, I can't do enough, I think. But really, like, or, I mean.

Clearly, I think it's around three pillars or three issues. And then I can get into what we do about them. But really, it's one. The first pillar is organizational management. And in that, don't mean it has two parts. But one is literally the organization, the actual physical space. There's the famous quote that's famous for edge Amelia schools. But it basically is like the classroom is the third teacher.

how the space is organized, where, really to the fundamentals of like where do they get the folders, where do they access their materials, how do they travel through the room, where are the clogging points, where is their traffic, and then the other side of organizational management is

scheduling. It's just like, how do I schedule my days? How do I block out my time? How do I communicate that schedule to students? How do we, how do I organize my time? Like all of those things. And I mean, just go in on that a little bit further is in my kind of research of digging into this. I think I mentioned to you, I've been analyzing the syllabi of teacher preparation programs in Australia, the UK, the United States and Canada, analyzing all their courses that are offered for

Miles (11:44.417)
teachers and I only selected universities that also have a degree program so you can get a bachelor's or master's degree at these schools in organizational management. they actually so they have have professors they have courses it's not like they have to make it up but none of those syllabi have a course in organizational management for teachers.

So there's an, like they have classroom management, which is a different thing, but they don't have like actual, you're going to organize 20 to 35 humans. Like how do you do that? Well, and how do you organize your own time and you manage your own time? so it's right.

Seth Fleischauer (12:17.636)
That's shocking to me that, right? I love what you're talking about with this, again, mirrors my own experience. I had this moment where this woman named Dianthie came into my classroom and was like, no, no, this does not look right. And I'm like, what do you mean? I know where everything is. when I was a kid, my room was a gigantic mess, but I knew where everything was.

Miles (12:41.102)
Mm.

Seth Fleischauer (12:47.096)
So it wasn't a problem for me, right? Like my parents would come in and be like, you don't even know where this is. And I'd be like, doink, it's right here, you know? And that's just how my brain works, but like, obviously not how everybody's brain works. And Dianthi came in and she sat down with me and like, she was like, put yourself in the head space of your students. Like, where would you want this to be? Where would you want this to be? If you were, if you were maximizing flow.

Miles (12:47.256)
Mm-hmm.

Miles (12:52.13)
Yeah.

Miles (12:58.424)
Mm-hmm.

Miles (13:06.197)
Mm. Mm.

Miles (13:15.064)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (13:15.212)
Right? If you were letting things just be as they felt they should be. And it's like, sat in the middle of the room and like meditated like those, you know, Japanese gardeners who like garden garden in Kyoto, you know, like, like meditate for an hour and then go 20 feet over and snip a bush. And they're like, that was it. That was the one, you know, so we like kind of sat in middle of the room and like,

Miles (13:25.923)
breaks.

huh.

Seth Fleischauer (13:37.892)
just felt the space and I was like, oh yeah, this doesn't work over here and this doesn't work over here. I was like my first blog post I wrote, I was like 25, it was called How I Got Clean. I guess foreshadowing my eventual sobriety but I love that part of it and then the scheduling piece, know, space and time turns out same thing, right? So like organizing time, I love this book, I don't know if you know this, Time Management for Mortals.

Miles (13:42.636)
Hmm.

Miles (13:48.302)
Hahaha

Miles (13:59.276)
Yep. Yep.

Seth Fleischauer (14:06.756)
It's like 4,000 weeks. it's like, like one of the, one of my big takeaways from this book was you, you are going to disappoint some people. And so you may as well prioritize that list of people you're going to disappoint and make sure that like, you know, the, ones you most want to disappoint are like at the top of that list, you know, and like, and like the people you don't want to disappoint at all are at the bottom. And what happens is you like refocus on like what's

Miles (14:06.924)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Miles (14:29.317)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (14:35.734)
important, right? Because you because you find yourself just being dragged in all of these directions as a teacher. There's all of these pressures on you from parents, from students, from administration, from the society as a whole. You know, how are you spending these like precious minutes with these kids? And like, are you bringing something to us? Are you allowing them space to explore? Like, I mean, there's so many choices to make. And and

Miles (14:36.491)
what's important.

Miles (14:42.274)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Miles (14:49.134)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (15:04.488)
nailing down a schedule, like really, really bringing intentionality to that requires you to like, think about what you value, right? Like, like you have to, you have to have that schedule represent what you value and you can only do that by bringing a mindful approach to it.

Miles (15:09.358)
Mm.

Miles (15:13.514)
Exactly.

Miles (15:22.958)
And that's super interesting because I think, I mean, it made me think of two things like still in this first pillar of that idea. The first thing I was thinking of is I can give an example, a concrete example. was literally just at a school in Mexico last week and the teacher that we were working, I was working with, were doing the literacy lessons. This is how it does combine. And the stretch for her, she, I was really pushing to just try something new, try something that you don't normally do. And we were talking about student engagement and we were talking about, because that was a value that they had.

thinking these two together because the school had identified like her own personal teams value was that we really value student engagement, that it's not to kind of sit and get. And so looking at her practice, she said, okay, there's a lesson I'm gonna deliver and I'm gonna do something different, which I don't normally do and take my first graders and I'm gonna ask them instead of like just turning and talking at their, I'm gonna ask them to go off and to like record in a sketch or a post-it note, their kind of prior knowledge around literally a chicken and an egg.

Seth Fleischauer (16:22.176)
Hehehehehe

Miles (16:22.768)
Let me tell you joke about that later. And so she had it set up. So I went in the room to observe the next day and she had posted two chart paper posters on the wall in a corner with a can of markers. And then she told the students that she wanted them to share what they already knew about chickens and eggs. And they were to get up and go over and then sketch or write and put it on the chart.

And so they did 22 of them and they were crowded into a corner. It was like, you know, more traffic than like the LA freeway. They were bumping into each other. They were angry. They couldn't get the part pens. They were running over time. They couldn't, of course, all fit on the thing. The teaching assistant is trying to help. And I watched the teacher slowly like think this doesn't work. It fails. It's a failure. This, can't do this. And I just thought to myself,

All you have to do is put five chart papers out on the five different tables that are available with a basket of markers and some post-its and send them back to their tables and

do that and then I thought you know even that that's time because then she would do I know the teacher she would take her recess which happened before this half this lesson and she herself would get out the chart paper and put out the markers and she would say this is not sustainable so that's her time issue and all I thought is she just needed somebody to say how do we teach kids to be collaborative so that what she says is

Seth Fleischauer (17:38.094)
Hmm.

Mm.

Miles (17:49.568)
Okay, you're going to go to your tables and you're going to record your thinking and as you go, material managers grab this and then there's a material manager for each table. The kid goes and gets it. bring it like it would and it'd be, it would work in four minutes. So the time would not be wasted. And I just thought, and I'm not criticizing her. was just like, that's just organizational management. Like thinking, it's not a good idea to put these two things in a tight corner in the back of the room and have one can of markers. It's just, but that's not that she

Seth Fleischauer (18:03.353)
Yeah.

Miles (18:17.418)
She hadn't done it before. She's trying to do something different. And then the kids were frustrated. Right. And so it's just, that's just an example for me. And then it kind of hits both those things that like how we use our time shows what we value. And if we want our values to live through our time, we as teachers have to make those decisions because it's time is limited, you know, another grid code I have though, is that teachers say, I don't have time. And then I

you'll get to know me in the podcast, but I kind of push back and I'm like, actually, you do have time. You have six and a half hours. Maybe you don't have priorities. Which doesn't always make me popular. Maybe.

Seth Fleischauer (18:59.736)
Maybe you have some responsibility. Yeah, I mean, that's such a tough exploration, right? Because then it's like, it's, it's, um, uh, maybe I have made choices that are not serving my students. I mean, you started it with that.

Miles (19:15.438)
Hmm.

Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (19:19.108)
care piece, right? Like, so much of this is about like the time and the care, like time and care go together because you care so much about your students, you want to give so much. And I do think that there is that, you know, with the example of the teacher who didn't want to disseminate that work to the students, there's this give and take between I care for my students and I enable my students to care for themselves, right? And I think especially with like people who teach very young kids,

Miles (19:25.304)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Miles (19:39.278)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (19:48.32)
there's and for parents too it's like you know that's a constant conversation of like what am i modeling for them what do i just need to do for them and how am i enabling them to take care of themselves and i think that there's you know part of the identity of teachers is as caretakers and so yes i am going to take my recess because i am sacrificing myself for my students you know and and and then you come in with your

Miles (20:06.495)
Mm-hmm, for sure.

Miles (20:11.97)
Ha ha ha

Miles (20:17.262)
Hehehehehe

Seth Fleischauer (20:17.962)
jerk questions about priorities and you make me realize that like, yes, I am a caretaker, but I can provide in other ways and maybe this isn't really working for them. Okay, okay. We're only on the first pillar.

Miles (20:28.554)
Mm, mm, mm. Well, I know, that's, so yeah, so basically, but you know, so that's one, and it's not that there's like one before the other, there's, that's, but it's not just, that's not enough, obviously. So second pillar is what, over time, I mean, it's not anything new, but I've kind of, I've teased out to say routines and rituals. So this idea of two things.

And I guess to say previous, should have said like, if these three pillars are in place is how the time will be saved. That's kind of my point. So one, we can analyze, we can do time audits, we can do organizational, we can do classroom mapping, we can do that kind of thing. But that's not about, that's just organizational management. And the second is this idea of routines and rituals. And for me, it's really important to tease out those two things because a routine is...

something that is a structured, consistent sequence of actions or behaviors that are established to satisfy a specific task within a day. You want them automatized. mean, examples, how people enter the classroom, how materials are picked up, transitions between activities, et cetera. And those are the things. And they're essential, right? And because when those are in place,

Because it's automatized and it helps things run it basically for students it reduces cognitive load They don't have to think about like their cognitive load is freed to do the academic work because they don't have to they're not like What do I do next it builds independence, which is what we say we want

and it supports like their own emotional security, like the more it's, you know, it's that idea that like, if they know exactly their routine and this goes all the way to high school, right? If they, if that predictability reduces anxiety, which like fosters a sense of safety or comfort, right? Which is we know resonates and for teachers routines, they make it run more efficient, pumped. It helps with just the classroom flow. And it also allows the teachers to reduce their cognitive load.

Miles (22:42.828)
to focus on teaching, right? They spend more cognitive load on instruction.

And I used to think, and that's a lot around classroom management, but it's different than a ritual. so this like teasing these out and people always come to me like, yeah, but is this a ritual? Is it a routine? I'm like, okay, chicken, egg. But a ritual is like these meaningful, intentional practices.

that reinforce a sense of community or belonging, right? It's like they serve a purpose in the classroom, but the purpose that served is less about this automaticity of efficiency and more about like emotional, like fostering connection, shared values, transmission of values.

So examples of that can include everything from the morning greeting that you might give to in-depth reflections or a class cheer, how you celebrate milestones or academic achievements. And so an example really concretely is always the morning circle.

Seth Fleischauer (23:45.892)
Mm-hmm.

Miles (23:46.208)
A routine is the students know, they come in the door, they look at the schedule, they sit on the carpet either in their particular place or in a certain, like they sit, they know how to sit, they sit in a circle and they know that their colleague has to sit next to them, touching their knee, whatever. That's routinized. Don't think about it.

This is what we do. But then once we're in our circle and we have a particular like funny morning way to say hi to each other or we celebrate the cultures in our room by everybody learning to say hello in all of the languages that we speak and then the teacher pointing to one or pointing to a student and he says, then we all say it. That's a ritual, right? And those things can work together. And if you have, if you've consciously decided what they are,

you will on the routine side save time. That's unquestionable because that's what it does. And on the ritual side, you will be transmitting your values and transmitting the values of the school or of the culture that you're in or of the community of learners that you have.

And those things for the students fosters emotional connection, it strengthens the community, and it promotes mindfulness, right? They are the structure opportunities for students to pause, reflect, reset, self-regulate, et cetera.

Seth Fleischauer (25:08.63)
Yeah, it's, it's the the I love the idea of rituals versus routines. Routines are are sorry. Rituals are routines plus plus meaning. think the last time we talked, I suggested metaphor was part of it. Like there is an act that that carries meaning that goes beyond the simple routine of what you're doing. And that meaning contributes to the building of the culture, the building of the community.

Miles (25:34.83)
Mm-mm.

Seth Fleischauer (25:34.92)
and you know, we see these routines, sorry, rituals, a lot of overlap. but, you know, we, we see these everywhere, right? And, the thing is, is that, any routine can become a ritual, I think, right? Because like, I think about like, bringing an extra level of mindfulness to like how I do the dishes, right? Like I can just throw all those things in the, in the dishwasher or I can like, you know, wax on wax off with them and try to like, bring a little bit of like,

Miles (25:39.214)
Of course.

Hmm.

Miles (25:49.442)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Miles (26:01.868)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (26:04.732)
you know, being in the moment and, and scraping it, you know, in a certain way, getting a perfect circle, you know, like, setting it down with, with minimal clanking, you know, like that kind of stuff. and then all of a sudden that routine has meaning for me and it's become more of a ritual. I, I love that. Okay. So we've got, we've got organizational management, not just physical space, but also time and scheduling. We've got routines and rituals. What's the third pillar?

Miles (26:06.734)
Mm-hmm.

Miles (26:14.792)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Miles (26:22.552)
Totally.

Miles (26:33.176)
Collaborative learning. So yeah, if we have this organization in place, we have our routines and our rituals set up, then the third pillar would be, what do we do to foster collaboration among students? And.

And I still, this is still under for me, the umbrella of efficiency, right? Like that is still, and that for, think it may be something different. mean, I've done a lot of work in kind of the SEL realm and, and, and great work. And it is that, but to me, want like to, for teachers, I think it's, it's an easier ask, or it's somehow clear if you say the more you're able to foster.

successful collaboration among students, the more time you will save. Because in the end, you will enhance engagement, you will support, it'll be easier to support differentiation. It prepares for the real world skills that we're focused on, and it allows for more to be happening at the same time, because you are alone and you don't have enough.

And I think that the reason my kind of gut lies in why it doesn't happen necessarily, or why teachers are, why it's easier to say like, we're gonna have a, you we're gonna have an SEL program, say, as opposed to what does it mean to foster collaboration with students? And by collaboration, I don't just mean like, okay, now go do group work. I mean, like, how are we teaching it?

Because I think, I have some guesses, I think that collaboration as a concept for teachers to get that really clearly set up is they themselves, or we humans, but particularly maybe teachers, they don't know or they don't have strong collaboration skills.

Miles (28:30.432)
And again, with my slightly facetious hat on, might say, like, and I do work with teachers and so I use this all the time. I'm like, okay, so ready? You're in your team. You're a grade level team of teachers. There's seven of you. You have a team. You're going to see each other all the time. You get together on your weekly meetings. You have a task. Do your planning, do your grading, do your scoring, do your whatever. And so you have a goal in mind.

you have somebody that puts you there, administration, whatever, and then they say, work together. And then I just stop and say, and how well does that go? Hmm, let's talk about that. Right? Like, you know, and then I try to make that, and yet you do it with students, you say, okay, now off you get you fourth graders, and I'd like you to go work with four people, and it doesn't go well. And then you say, these kids don't know to work together. And I'm like, do you? And I think, so I think one is that, and I think also that sometimes teachers think that

Seth Fleischauer (29:00.068)
Yeah.

Miles (29:20.692)
It's difficult to teach explicitly collaboration skills because they're kind of, it's vague or they're not actionable, right? It's a more, it's not so concrete.

And or there's feedback around collaboration with teachers often tends to or tends towards like it's like personalization. It's kind of like you as a person that maybe they feel they feel like, I can't I can't evaluate a student's collaboration skills because then it turns into a personal attack as opposed to just objective skills that humans have to collaborate. So the work I do around that is really like I have developed, you know, not just.

not just math, but like I have developed what I think is a very clear concrete set of standards and skills for collaborative work that is action oriented, action driven, verb first, that you can observe clearly. like if one of them is how, know, a collaboration requires effective communication. So do I, how do I collaborate effectively or how do I communicate effectively in my group? And then you can break that down and say like really basic, make eye contact.

repeat your colleagues or your peers or rephrase their statement. Disagree with the sentence stems. Do you know what mean? Like you can break it down really clearly, which I think alleviates some anxiety in teachers to say, and that goes back to how do we do this all? How do we save time? Because you can be doing that while delivering instruction.

Seth Fleischauer (30:38.702)
Mm-hmm.

Miles (30:52.288)
is my point. Like if your learning intention is I'm a fifth grade teacher and we're going to study character traits in a novel, at the same time, you can do that and say, my second goal, my second objective for this lesson is we're going to practice paraphrasing our partners analysis of their character. And then I do two things at once and be clear with the kids. Like you're telling them we're doing this and you're doing this. And the more you do that, the more you foster those skills.

they will be able to then if you say, now go work together for the four of you and read this text and have a book club, which is a very common fourth to eighth grade task that goes horribly wrong. They might have the collaboration skills which would make it be more efficient. Does that make sense?

Seth Fleischauer (31:36.772)
Yeah, I mean, my question though is who has time for that? Just kidding. Yeah, And that's, and that's, and that's, think that's part of the hard sell, right? Is that like, it is an investment, right? Like in order, like in order to be able to get there, wherever there is, whether it's a

Miles (31:43.194)
Yeah. No. I was about to jump on it. I was about to be like, no, but you see, go slow to go fast. Like if you spend the time in the beginning, it's going to go faster later.

Miles (31:56.002)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (32:02.932)
a solid set of classroom routines or a room that is perfectly designed for students to flow through it or teaching collaborative work skills like there is investment upfront and a lot of teachers, you know, get locked into their routines. This is how they've done it every year for this many, you know, like that type of thing.

Miles (32:08.632)
Yeah.

Miles (32:13.088)
Mm. Yep. Yep.

Miles (32:20.756)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Seth Fleischauer (32:25.212)
And it can be scary, right? It can be scary to try something new and especially at the beginning of the year and hope that it works. You know how critical that time is. I do want to back up a little bit though. You said effective communication is one of these collaborative work skills. What are some of the other explicit observable collaborative work skills that you teach there?

Miles (32:29.688)
Mm-hmm.

Miles (32:33.452)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Miles (32:42.722)
Hmm.

I mean, broken down kind of in a hierarchy. So first we have just like, know myself and know others, right? Like when you're in a group, you need to be, how do I know myself? How do I, how do I name my emotions? How can I recognize emotions and others? So like an actionable skill that you could say in that is, like can, right? Starting with an action verb or name, name emotions as they arise.

Right? And you can do that with you can then practice with like visual facial recognition, you can do it with tone, whatever. Another one might be seek opinion of others or seek perspective of others. And then you can break that down further and you can say, ask these types of questions, ask, you know, open ended questions, whatever.

So, but first it's that, it's once we, okay, once, let's pretend we know each other and know ourselves, then we have effective communication. Those, forever, like I'm just like, you know, I get an A plus. But then you would, and like kind of consecutively, I would say then it's like effective communication. So, which I already mentioned. And once you have that going, then the third thing will be basically, how are we going to reach group, like group decisions? How do we make group decisions?

Seth Fleischauer (33:32.612)
Check.

Miles (33:56.27)
Right. So how do we honor different ideas and take groups? Right. I mean, it's super hard. Um, then once we have that, you have to say, okay, or actually again, together, I think it's like also identify group goals, right? Like you, like, how do you seek everybody's input so that we, know what the goals are and then tell me. Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (33:57.38)
So hard.

Seth Fleischauer (34:14.894)
So just stop at that part. You're operating internationally. There's got to be a whole lot of cultural context there in terms of how to reach a group decision. For example, there are democratic countries and there are non-democratic countries. In America, you might think, obviously, it's let's vote and whatever wins, that's what we do. And I try to coach my daughter through this right now. She's making a Rube Goldberg machine and her partner.

Miles (34:25.282)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Miles (34:36.498)
Mm. Mm. Mm.

Seth Fleischauer (34:43.384)
has these like fantastical ideas that she knows are not gonna work. She doesn't wanna like, you know, prevent this girl from dreaming, but she also wants to get an A. And so she's like trying to like navigate this space of like, I'm like, yeah, this is hard. It's hard to come to, especially if it's like an even number of people and you can't just be like majority wins. So how do you do that? How do you navigate that?

Miles (34:43.948)
Hmm

Hmm.

Miles (34:50.732)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Miles (35:04.242)
Right? Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, when I think of an example like that, well, I have many thoughts on an example like that. So let's take that project approach. First, I think, again, it goes to the teacher, right? I agree. I think having a partnership make a project like that is probably not the wisest teaching move, to be very honest. I mean,

Seth Fleischauer (35:21.582)
Hmm. there's your organizational skills. was pillar number one.

Miles (35:26.242)
But it's true because, but let's say now we have the situation and I think then in that it is a matter of for your daughter's sake what she's learning. And also we have to go to intentionality, right? So on the one hand, the intentionality is to make this machine and that's, and she wants to do well, she wants to achieve well, she wants to get an A. And for the teacher's sake again, it's intentionality is the intention that every child like make the rule, it has to be perfect, is the intention that they learn through the process.

And for your, for your daughter's sake, would think one thing that's about learning is, is she does, she wants the, she wants her friend, her colleague to like have the experience of trying all the things, but also in herself, she's like, but that one's not going to work. And I think then it's, she can learn the skill of, Hey, you've got five great ideas or you've got four great ideas. We don't have time to do all of them. So.

I think these two would be best and here's why. So your daughter's learning how to state her opinion clearly and do it without insulting somebody. And then she says, here's the way I think we should do these two because these two might not work because of this, this and this. Can we try only these two? Are you okay with that? The other girl is gonna have to learn how.

Seth Fleischauer (36:24.43)
Hmm.

Miles (36:34.966)
Compromise she's gonna hear something that she doesn't like to hear She's gonna hear ideas that she is not happy with and then if she's really like no Then I think if I was a teacher in the situation I would come in and I would say that sounds like a really smart idea Sometimes when we have to navigate these things we do have to meet these compromises She's offered you these two you want to try the other two you get to do them by yourself Do I mean like I think I think these things can be it's just that like but also going back to the thing about culture

Seth Fleischauer (36:56.271)
Yeah, There's just so much tough stuff in there, know? like, I mean, adults can't do this. Right? Like, there's just so many feelings. It's hard.

Miles (37:05.228)
Right? But that is, that I think is kind of where I get to where I'm like, you're right, like adults can't. So let's get better at it ourselves and then like, let's help them so that adults that get like, just like we say, like we want them to be X, Y, and Z like, yeah. So as they, if they could learn it when they are adults and...

Seth Fleischauer (37:24.856)
Yeah.

Miles (37:29.526)
It's also where school is at, right? Like we know so much, knowledge doesn't matter anymore. Like they're going to tell you, no, they're going to AI themselves out of the world, whatever. Well, they're not going to add themselves to the fact that they've got like Nancy next to them that wants to do it wrong.

Seth Fleischauer (37:31.351)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (37:42.692)
Yeah, yeah, it's funny because I feel like elementary school teachers especially, but teachers in general, they can become better people because they're forced to teach these foundational skills that maybe they didn't learn the first time around. Yeah, yeah. mean, I'm coaching basketball right now and I'm becoming a better basketball player because I'm like, that's how you do a crossover.

Miles (37:55.496)
Mmm. Mmm. We hope!

Miles (38:08.214)
Right? Right? Right.

Seth Fleischauer (38:08.228)
Ah, yeah, yeah, that's that's the yeah, huh. And and you know, teaching these, like identifying your feeling that was like way up at the top, we just skipped over it. And like, this is hard, you know, this hard work. Like, how do I actually feel? Is that how I feel? Is that like, society like society telling me that I should feel away? Is that my like people pleasing? Like, like, making it so that I want to prevent her from feeling bad right now? Like, like, you know, like identifying that intuition, like quieting the noise like that's, ooh, that is life work.

Miles (38:16.886)
Right. It's super hard.

Miles (38:25.46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Miles (38:31.118)
Mm-hmm.

Miles (38:35.906)
Mm-hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (38:37.56)
That is tough stuff.

Miles (38:39.702)
And I mean, you that just makes me think, like where, you know, like if you, if you go deep into this, to me, that sits somewhere in like, kind of like virtue literacy, right? Like, because that's this idea of, I mean, really, like you could go like, you know, kind of the Aristotelian, what is it, the phrenesis or whatever, kind of like practical wisdom, right? Like, which is like the ability to like navigate, you know, I don't know, complex cultural differences or cultural things that come up.

Seth Fleischauer (38:49.966)
Hehehehehe

Miles (39:07.754)
in situations that are complex and to be able to make sound judgment based on virtue. it's right. mean, and like, no, exactly. That's the point. Like, you know, but I think like the more you I don't know, like I think there's something in it that gets lost in school a bit like when, it when it becomes when the academics only come first.

Seth Fleischauer (39:11.844)
Yeah. Who's a virtue?

Miles (39:31.538)
in any setting. So in a middle school classroom of math and they're working, you know, the teacher says work together on this problem.

I mean, don't think a middle school teacher has to think about phrenesis at the time, but I think what they should be thinking is just as they would think, what are the barriers to comprehension of the math problem? What are the barriers to comprehension of the social setting that they're in? And how can I help students be more mindful of what it takes to work together? Because again, as we hear all the time, there's less about knowing and it's all these like 21st century skills, globally minded individuals. Well, then that's the lesson.

That's the lesson. The lesson is when the student is having it. And I think the more you, and so they all go together. So the more you've thought organizationally, the more you've thought about your time, the more you've set up routines in the classroom and rituals for how kids communicate together.

Seth Fleischauer (40:07.192)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Miles (40:22.978)
the easier it will be to have the collaboration happen. And the more you focus on the collaboration skills, they might develop their own ritual. As you said, something that was routinized might become a ritual, which then feeds back into, and now I have more time on my organizational schedule to do this type of work. Like it's, it's kind of like twisted together.

Seth Fleischauer (40:25.86)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (40:37.58)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because, you know, here we are 40 minutes into the podcast. We said literacy, I think in minute number one, we haven't talked about it since then. But the whole point of this is that you do all these things and then whether it be literacy, whether it be some other core academic subject you're trying to achieve, this enables you to reach your goals, whatever they are. And I love that part of it.

Miles (40:43.735)
you

Miles (40:47.356)
You

Miles (40:58.094)
Mm.

That's there.

Seth Fleischauer (41:04.888)
We talked about ritual and I want to share a ritual that I used to do with my third graders in Brooklyn, or sorry, in Manhattan. We had a closing meeting on Fridays. We would, and I want you to do this too, and I want all my listeners to do this too. So it's Friday afternoon and we think about our weekend and we think about a goal or a hope or a dream, something that we want to happen in the universe.

Miles (41:19.585)
Okay.

Seth Fleischauer (41:32.708)
and then we whisper it into our closed palms, right? So you have your palms with like little bit of air in between them. so everybody do this, put up your palms and whisper into your palms. Just take a moment to do that. Your hopes and dreams.

Miles (41:45.006)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (41:59.62)
Okay, so now we are on the count of three. We are going to release our hopes and dreams into the universe. One, two.

Miles (42:07.406)
Okay.

Seth Fleischauer (42:11.702)
open your hands and that moment when 25 kids all open up their hands and let their hopes and dreams like you can feel it. It is visceral, right? And it's also my go to a wedding speech, a ritual, right? Cause it's like we're whispering hopes and dreams for the bride and groom, right? Or for the married couple. and I've done that. I did that on my own wedding and it is like, it is such

Miles (42:22.51)
Mm-hmm

Miles (42:28.43)
Ah, good one! Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (42:41.59)
an amazing feeling to know that all of that like positivity is being released in such a condensed space. And it's yeah, so I just I wanted to do that. I hope listeners at home take that with you. It is it's an awesome, awesome ritual. Well, Miles, thank you so much for being here. Where can our listeners find you and your work on the Internet?

Miles (42:42.965)
Mmm.

Miles (42:49.631)
Mm-hmm.

Miles (42:56.833)
It's beautiful.

It's beautiful.

Miles (43:05.294)
So they can go to effectiveclassrooms.org and you can link it in there and switch to my website. And also I'm on LinkedIn, just miles Madison, easy to find. Also they can find me on, I should also mention they can also find me at the EKC website. So it's, you can also put the link there, but it's erincentconsulting.com. And I'm listed as one of the strategists there.

Seth Fleischauer (43:16.333)
Awesome.

Seth Fleischauer (43:25.956)
Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for being here. I could talk to you for another three hours. Maybe we'll have you back at some point. In the meantime, enjoy your gallivanting around the world, teaching people how to save time. Yeah, of course, of course. For our listeners, if you want to support the podcast, please do leave a rating. Follow us, write a review, tell a friend.

Miles (43:34.734)
That'd be great.

Miles (43:39.346)
Thank you. Well, we're gonna see about it. I gotta work on it still too.

Seth Fleischauer (43:55.1)
Thank you as always to our editor Lucas Salazar and remember if you want to bring positive change to education you must first make it mindful. See you next time.