Make It Mindful: An Education Podcast

Seth Fleischauer (00:01.472)
Hello everyone and welcome to Make It Mindful, the podcast where we explore how to keep schools relevant by looking through the lens of mindfulness and asking the question, what's really worth paying attention to here? My name is Seth Fleishauer, my co -host Lauren Pinto is on a break, but together we delve into the world of education by interviewing change makers and focusing on practical transformative solutions for teaching. My guest this week is Rushden Hurley. Welcome Rushden, thank you so much for being here.

Rushton (00:28.992)
It is a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Seth Fleischauer (00:31.7)
Typically, when I invite people on the podcast, it's because I've met them recently and I'm so inspired by their work. I need to bring them on. I think 10 years ago is not recently. I've known you for quite some time. I was trying to think about the first time that I saw you and it was up on stage. You were presenting a queue, Computer Users for Education Conference in California, back when I lived in Los Angeles, and you were speaking, I believe it was about 21st century skills.

And it was one of the first times that I experienced a talk from someone who seemed that they had a firm grasp of what is happening now, but also a very clear vision for what was going to happen in the future. And it's interesting because Deirdre Marlow, who works with me on this podcast, she was like, is this guy an education futurist? Is that what he is? And I thought, huh, maybe kinda. So I'm wondering,

Are you an education futurist? Is that what you are, Rushden? Maybe kind of.

Rushton (01:32.384)
Maybe kind of, absolutely, right? The excitement for me has always been about what technology might allow us to.

discuss and explore and see differently, right? So tech is flashy and fine, and it has plenty of strengths and concerns. But if it gets us into a space where we're asking really good questions about what's possible and what kids can do that allows them to see themselves in new ways, then that tech is interesting.

Seth Fleischauer (02:08.48)
So I have to, I mean, AI is interesting then, right? Like, because I feel like AI is this opportunity for us to really examine what it means to be human, right? Like we used to look at the animals and compare ourselves to them and be like, well, what they can't do, we can do, right? Now we have the machines to also look at. And in education with AI, there's this big question of like, do we need to adjust what we are doing, how we are teaching?

in order to not only prepare them for a world where AI is going to be a tool that is commonly used, but also to exist in a world where the things that we're asking them to do for their traditional assignments are things that they can very much do with AI. So this is an exciting technology, right?

Rushton (02:53.28)
I would certainly say so. And when in broaching that topic, you're really getting into kind of that space of like, how are things going to change over the next five to 10 years or so, right? Which I think is an important question for us to grapple with.

because the rapid development of generative AI and rapid is, you know, that doesn't even begin to capture the thought, you know, let's come up with a policy. Okay, we'll be dealing with something totally different by the time we get the policy. That's how fast this stuff is moving. So as I look at it, I have these kind of two different responses, I think, to how we think about generative AI, right? One is, I'll be blunt, kind of fairly dark, right?

We've had people saying for the last 18 months, generative AI will never replace a teacher. And, you know, I think we really need to stop and say, is generative AI as it is better than a highly ineffective teacher?

Seth Fleischauer (03:47.04)
Yeah.

Rushton (03:57.12)
And if so, what does that mean for how we structure things? Now, I don't like that there are people who are now perhaps less effective than this tool.

And that probably says more about how we devote resources and energy to training people than it does anything else. But if it's the case that this stuff is going to just keep getting better, and there's the time difference between when we record this and when it airs, which itself may be a period of time in which all kinds of things come out about AI. That's how fast this stuff is going. But...

Seth Fleischauer (04:34.944)
Hehehe

Rushton (04:41.76)
But if what we do is we respond to that idea saying, how do we make sure that we are not doing the things that are ineffective, some of which are things we've been doing as a system for decades? Because now it really matters because people's jobs are on the line.

I don't think it's a good idea that we would replace teachers with AI. I don't think that's a good idea at all. But I can totally see it happening because people are going to say, hey, look, this school now can respond in these ways and can work individually in this fashion. And is it better than a really good teacher? No.

but we only have so many really good teachers as any given person might define it, right? So that's one piece that really makes us stop and go, huh, how do we prepare for the possibility that this stuff can actually act in a way that's kind of in the same space as what a mid -range teacher can do? So that professional development question is part of it. Now.

Another way I look at this though has to do with what could be liberating for both educators and for students. I think of generative AI and its relationship to education in terms of four phases. The first phase is kids, wow, this will write my essay for me. Yes, and that's a problem and we could spend lots of time on that, but lots of other people have no need.

The second phase is teachers saying, this is going to save me a ton of time. Okay, now we're talking a language that's important to teachers. Time. Because when people are concerned about what's about to happen, they're usually concerned about what it means for the amount of time they have to put into it because they have other things in their lives that are important. And they've put all kinds of time into developing their ability to do things well under the system as it was up until pre -generative AI or anything along those lines.

Rushton (06:40.87)
But it can save a ton of time in a lot of interesting ways that can be powerful for students. And that's probably where most folks are at the moment. Then there is a teacher using AI as part of his or her teaching. So, you know, the example I like to give on this is something that I was doing with my Creative Solutions for the Global Good class just earlier this school year.

where a student was asking about doing a project with a homeless shelter in San Francisco. And in doing that, we got to talking about how do we know that that homeless shelter is doing a good job? How do we know? What kind of questions do you ask to find that out? And as a part of that discussion, I told the class, I said, all right, I want you to look at what I'm putting into Jadgpd. Look at this prompt. Act as a nonprofit financial auditor.

Next week you have a meeting with an organization in San Francisco that serves the homeless. What are questions that one might ask to learn whether they are using their funds properly?

Now that generated a set of questions that were excellent discussion prompts for what we could talk about in terms of how to get the students thinking about, I'm not just trying to help any given organization because it's a charity. I'm trying to learn about their challenges and their effectiveness and their distinctiveness in a way that allow me to better understand what I might be able to bring to it. That to me is fascinating, right? But that's phase three. Phase four, and this is the one that I think is really, really interesting, is

kids using generative AI to become far better students.

Rushton (08:19.09)
And I think that's not because they're getting answers from generative AI. I think it's because they're asking better questions to produce questions. So if you stop and you think, okay, you know, a kid could be asking about this new topic that's about to come up in the biology class, cell division, right? The teacher's going to start talking about this tomorrow. And the teacher and the kid goes into generative AI and says, what are important things to know? And if that kid has a frame that says this stuff may be

completely wrong, but what does it talk about? What are the terms that are coming up? What does this generally seem to be about? Five, ten minutes. And then walks into class the next day, everybody else is getting it for the first time, and that kid is connecting dots.

And then a few days into it, that kid goes back to Gemini or Claude or whatever and says, what are common misconceptions about cell division? This all may be completely wrong, but does it generate questions about how I think or any of these misconceptions, if they are truly so, ones I have? What does that get me to in terms of asking questions when I walk back into the class next day?

And then two weeks into it, teacher says, OK, Friday we're going have a test on cell division. And that kid knows at this point how to say, act as a teacher of biology, creating a test covering cell division. What are 10 complex short answer questions that one might ask to test one's understanding and for each provide an answer? Realizing that every last one of these may be completely wrong, you're still in a space of, does that make sense? Does this conform with what I've learned before?

And you could be a student. I mean, I could keep going, you know, like language use and reading level. I mean, I could keep going. But if you've got a student who goes from being in the, my God, everybody else seems to do school better than I am. I'm just not good at school, to, whoa, with these hacks, I can actually handle this stuff. How much easier did the teacher's job just get?

Seth Fleischauer (10:15.552)
And I wonder, I wonder though, if that is the student that this is going to impact as much as the student that is motivated. You know, you talked about the kid who's motivated to look this up the day before he comes to class, right? Like that is not the student who otherwise is failing biology, right? Like that is a, that is a motivated student, a curious student, a student with resources to investigate these things at home. And so, you know, I think about this in terms of like accessibility.

and what it can do for kids at all these different levels. And the way back you were talking about, you know, whether or not it can replace teachers entirely, you said that it could replace bad teachers. And I wonder, though, I think that it can replace much of what a bad teacher does. I think it can replace some of what a good teacher does, because even if you can, you know, for example, use ChatGP to differentiate a lesson plan in 10 different ways,

it's still nearly impossible to execute 10 different lesson plans at the same time. And so today we'll see. But if you can use the tool to help you differentiate, right? So like you're pushing something out to all the students and like each one is like personalized in its own way for their skills, their interests, right? So you're leaning on the tool to be able to help you differentiate in that way. I think that the

Rushton (11:20.256)
Today. Today.

Seth Fleischauer (11:44.832)
The benefit of the tech, therefore, is something that is going to supplement any given teacher. It'll supplement more of what a bad teacher does, but I don't think we're going to get to that point anytime soon where the social relationship between the teacher and the student is so unnecessary that you can fully replace a bad teacher.

Rushton (12:05.792)
So Seth, love you dearly. I'm going to push back on both of those thoughts. And I agree with everything you said. And that agreement is not what's motivating decisions by those who pull the purse strings, who make decisions about personnel, who are looking at tools and the kind of arguments they're hearing, like whispered at them at conferences and in the exhibit hall about what AI can do.

Seth Fleischauer (12:09.18)
Love it.

Rushton (12:31.872)
It is about, at some level, for some set of people who matter in terms of decisions, is this going to save us money? Right? And so I don't think it's a good idea. I agree. I agree with everything you said. And I still think we are heading in that direction just because of how things have always worked before. Right? Now, maybe, maybe not. Now, on the student front,

Right. There is this really interesting tension, I think, between resources and privilege on the one hand and possibility for the motivated on another. So one of the things that happens is that for a lot of students who are who are already in privileged places, that's either because they are already doing the kinds of things that would get them into a top flight university or because they live in privileged areas or anything like that.

They're doing just fine in the system as it is. And do they have advantages that will pull them in a direction of being able to use things powerfully? Absolutely. But they don't have the same motivation as someone who understands that if I don't do anything different,

I'm never going to climb out of the poverty that my community is mired in. I'm actually doing a training in the Philippines for 200 teachers this summer that is about this. How do you help your students think differently about how they approach their learning? And we'll be talking about this stuff a lot and gendered media and digital media and collaborative technologies and just trying to think in terms of being really good professionals in the education space.

But there's what we want, which is teachers to be prepared to use these tools effectively and kids to use them honorably. And there is what happens. And one of the mistakes that we are making as a system right now is that we're not painting a picture that allows kids to see these tools as something other than the heavenly gift to them of instant cheating and getting something done.

Seth Fleischauer (14:28.99)
Hmm.

Rushton (14:32.768)
They have to have a different way of thinking about it in order to begin to see its potential. And that's going to be easier for someone who's at the bottom quintile of the piece of scores, right? You know, just in terms of a system.

Seth Fleischauer (14:32.958)
Hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (14:47.712)
Yeah. So I think what we've talked about here so far is some innovative approaches to teaching. And this is something that you that is very dear to your heart. You are, as we said, an education futurist. When I first met you, I learned about your program Next Vista, which is a student created video contest. There are contests that go around and then a library that's created of student.

generated videos that you provide the curriculum for how to do it properly. You're really big about citations, making sure that students are citing all the information in a proper way. And our students that we work with in Taipei, Taiwan have participated in Next Vista. Some of them have won some of these contests. You have actually gone out and visited our campus out there in Taipei, which is incredible. But you also have this program.

that at Huniporo Sarah School in the Bay Area. I believe that's Tom Brady's school. Is that Tom Brady's school? Yeah. And it is called the Creative Solutions for the Global Good. You mentioned it here earlier. This is another innovative approach to education. I attended the large presentation that you do every year where you, to quote Rushden Hurley, expand the audience.

Rushton (15:50.432)
That is true. Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (16:13.216)
and make it so that the students who are doing these action projects within their community who have identified something that they want to work on that's going to have a social impact, they are presenting this not just to their peers, but on this call that you facilitate every year, it's to like 100 global leaders from around the world.

I'm not sure how you know all these fantastic people, maybe through Rotary. I think that's at least one of them. But you really do curate an amazing audience for that experience. And what an opportunity for those kids. I'm wondering, because I, you know, there's so many directions we could go with this. It's an incredible program. But could you share maybe a particularly impactful story from your experiences that really illustrate the power of innovative approaches to teaching?

Rushton (17:04.864)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for calling up both of those ideas, right? I do believe that one of the really untapped gold mines for, I think I'm mixing metaphors, of kind of great education is innovative service. So getting students to really understand what it means to think about others in their community in need, others around the world in need, and to learn the processes.

Seth Fleischauer (17:18.624)
Heheheheh

Rushton (17:34.72)
for coming up with ideas, not because you're gonna go save somebody, but because you wanna learn and you wanna try things out and you want feedback on how these ideas may or may not work, right? So in this class, Creative Solutions, no tests, no papers, one project. And that project is something you really care about and you say, hey, I'm gonna try to do something about that.

And so, you know, the other teacher, Rita Lee and I, you know, we just ask lots of questions. How are you going to handle that? Who are you going to talk to? You know, did you make some notes about the conversation that you had with that person? Did you ask that person if there was somebody else you might talk to? Are you working with this in this way? Right. It's just tons of questions and getting students to realize that they're capable of making cool things happen. So had this kid last year in terms of the story, right, Zach.

And he would do his community service, because community service is usually how many hours did you get, which all right, it does get you in a space where you're beginning to think about things differently, that's fine. But we want to see something more than that, right? And so he'd done like all of his community service at this elderly care, a senior citizen center in the town where he lives.

And so he was saying, hey, I want the people at this place to have opportunities to do things that they've never done. Maybe they've always wanted to do, but they've never done. So I'm going to use VR to give them these opportunities and work with them and see if I can make that happen. It's like, OK, that's really cool. I'll make it happen. So he goes and he starts doing this stuff, runs into his problems. That's important, by the way. The problems are important for making all this happen.

But finally gets it in motion and in his presentation, because at the end of the year, you present all this stuff. He has this picture of this woman, you know, going, you know, and she's got these headset, this headset on and she's clearly, you know, kind of just mesmerized by whatever it is she's seeing and got this huge smile on her face. And he explains she's scuba diving. And she'd never scuba dived before. And then in the process of doing this,

Seth Fleischauer (19:40.766)
Hehehehe.

Rushton (19:48.192)
you know, this kind of project with this, this woman, she, she finishes and explains to him that three months before she'd lost her husband, right. And, and he had always loved scuba diving, but she'd always been afraid to go with him. And this was, this was her first opportunity to do that. That's the kind of stuff that makes a kid see the world differently. And every kid who hears that story is now in a space of like, wow. Hmm.

Because they're not thinking that way about a lot of traditional assignments. We have to teach them the core stuff. I believe that. I totally believe that. I think we can do it in powerful, interesting ways. Some, you know, a little less interesting, but maybe effective. Okay, fine. But does the kid get to the end of the year and feel like, I am capable of doing things in a way that I've never had before. I am a person who can lead, make a difference, any of these things, right?

And I think that if we build into their experiences somehow the opportunity to see that they're capable of doing something that has a wonderfully powerful impact on others, good.

Seth Fleischauer (21:00.928)
Hmm. So.

I always hear these amazing ideas for educational programs. There are these shining examples of people who have found themselves in a situation where they have the gumption, the ability, the space to create something great. And you've done that at your school. I'm wondering if, because I'm always like in the mind of a teacher who's like,

stuck in some public school that is underfunded and they've got all of these things that are weighing down on them, these things that they've got to check 50 boxes before they can even get to the point where they exercise any of their own creativity when it comes to even lesson planning. And I'm wondering if you have a framework or an idea around how to help that teacher do some version of what you're talking about here. Not necessarily

the full semester long study that is only going to be available at a school that has the type of leader that your school must have that can see the real value in providing enough time and space to do that. But some kind of like dip your toe in the water. Like how does what is what does innovative service light look like?

Rushton (22:21.888)
Nice. Yeah, I'm absolutely privileged to be in a place where they created a director of innovation position and I get to occupy it and they support a bunch of wild ideas, right? You know, that I, and not support some other wild ideas that I have. And that's fine. When I give the example I gave, you know, we have like VR headsets involved and things like that, right? And that speaks to resources and privilege again.

Seth Fleischauer (22:38.4)
Hahaha

Rushton (22:51.968)
But I do believe that the basic philosophy is something that could be done with chalk and slate under a tree. So, you know, it comes down to this. There are things I want you to learn. And I also want you to learn that you're capable of doing some interesting things. What might you try? So these very basic questions of what might you try? Who might you talk to? That teacher really just needs to be in a space of I'm willing to ask questions and maybe it's just to generate one little writing assignment.

you know, maybe it's a small scale thing, that's totally fine, right? Instead, what we want is to see not just what that can do for the kid, but also what that can do for the teacher. And what I mean by that is that a lot of our energy as teachers goes towards trying to bring the students along and develop the kind of rapport.

that allows them to believe that they're capable of doing the things you want them to learn and to do.

And that takes a ton of our energy. And one way to build that rapport so that you're getting more bang for each minute's buck, right, that you're teaching is to give students enough opportunity to do something interesting on their own for which there aren't right and wrong answers, right? You know, I mean, too much teaching comes down to do you or don't you have the right answer? Some of that's important. A lot of it isn't.

And we need to kind of be in that space that just says, hey, if you're going to be somebody who can really look at opportunities and think, hey, I could make a difference there. You have to be not intimidated by whether you will get it right the first time or not, right?

Rushton (24:40.736)
And so I kind of think that any teacher who says, I'm going to carve out a little time for kids to do interesting projects can begin building a set of professional experiences that allow incorporating this in useful ways. I get that as teachers, we are very, very busy. Comes back to this question of time. I get it. I get it. There are more expectations on our shoulders than there should be. Society, you know, like essentially, you know, expects the world.

us and blames us for stuff we have nothing to do. That's part of it. But if we stop and say, you know, I've got students walking through the door. I'm going to do what I can at whatever level I can to give them the chance to show that they're capable of doing really cool things.

then if that's the point of departure and you don't have to have the answers right away and you're talking with one or two colleagues on your campus elsewhere, doesn't matter, about how that works out, you can get there. And in terms of being saddled with time requirements.

I will note that while I wouldn't say we've got it good, it is probably worth remembering that there are teachers like teachers in the Philippines who are...

covering loads of 250 to 300 kids each and getting paid squat for what they do. And they still keep coming back to it. Now, that seems trite in a certain way. it could be worse, right? I'll tell you what, it could be better. It could be better in the sense that you could be having more fun doing what you do because you try certain things out. And when it gets better on a personal level, this is the mindful bit, right? When it gets better on a personal level, professional kind of comes along for the ride. And I think that's important.

Seth Fleischauer (26:27.008)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (26:30.88)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, you. So you mentioned the mindful piece and you know, something that we talk about here on on the on the program is the mindful adoption of technology. We're talking about innovation. We're talking about ways to to create something new within your classroom. Technology can be a bridge to that. It can be a tool for that. I'm wondering what does a mindful adoption of technology look like to you?

Rushton (27:00.64)
I would say that it is an adoption that essentially has very squarely centered on what the tech will do. What's this going to accomplish for the kid? There's a lot of stuff out there where it's like, okay, that's nice, but what does it do, really? I mean, is it just shiny? If so, shoot. Have the kids tell stories. That'll be shiny as well.

Seth Fleischauer (27:27.444)
Hehehehe.

Rushton (27:28.928)
And so, you know, I...

I've been in head tech for a long, long time. I think there are some really powerful technologies when used well, you know, can make, can, can make some great things happen for teachers and kids. And a whole lot of it, a whole lot of it is, is expensive distraction. I mean, it just is. and you know, when you are talking with vendors and they are telling you about their solution for something. And of course, you know, that begs the question of what problem are you trying to solve? And it's usually.

I haven't made enough sales, right? And instead, you know, it's just like, you know, you might come across a vendor who's like, hey, just tell me, tell me about your class, right? You know, tell me what are the frustrations you have? You know, you know, would it be helpful if there were something like this? You know, a vendor can have a much more empathetic and mindful kind of conversation with educators, most of whom have very little control over what actually gets bought, by the way.

Seth Fleischauer (28:04.062)
Hehehehe

Rushton (28:30.445)
Side note, but if we think in terms of like, hey, does this address a need? Really, really. And if so, what does the outcome look like? And then you're in kind of space of like, okay, and does that require further purchases? You know, and how does this work? And I think for a lot of teachers, one way to think about technology is to think about.

will the free stuff allow me to test the waters with the thing I want to try? And if so, that's probably a really good use of your time. Because, you know, the stuff that you want to pay for, if you're not sure that it's going to generate something good, don't spend that money on that. Spend the money on a field trip instead, right? Get out into the woods, you know, look around and do something a little different with those funds.

So I would say a really healthy way of looking at tech is to think about what is the kid going to be able to do that the kid couldn't do before and is that really worth the money that we're looking to spend on it.

Seth Fleischauer (29:39.212)
Yeah, and I like that you talk about identifying the need, right? Because it's something that is that seems very simple, but it is an act of mindfulness to to really take a step back and look at what you might really need, which might not necessarily be what you think you need. And there is a layer of objectivity that must be practiced in order to really get an insight into what.

might otherwise seem like an obvious thing to determine. So I like that. And we talked at the top here about you being an educational futurist. So the last question I want to ask you is, where do you see the future of EdTech heading in the next five to 10 years?

Rushton (30:25.152)
So I would build off of the earlier comment about possible replacement.

given advances in AI with a very specific suggestion for educators on what to do to prepare for whatever it is that's on the way because I mean, remarkably few people, and I certainly wasn't one of them, saw what was coming in November of 22, right before CHED GPT landed. I didn't see that coming. And so, if we're looking at the next five to 10 years, and we can assume,

that the AI is going to, that AI tools are going to keep getting better. Not because, by the way, they're going to have larger and larger data sets to train from. They're mostly out of that material already, but they're just going to be better at the algorithms, which leads to things like this week's announcement of GPT -4 .0, right, and the kinds of things that it does with that.

So how do you prepare? I would say that you develop a mindset that is encouraged and energized by inspiringly cool ideas. Cool is important. Cool means that people pay attention. Cool means that you want to know more, right? That cool is pedagogically important. And so finding what is inspiringly cool means learning where to look.

And another thing you mentioned earlier is that we've got this audience for the online showcase for the Creative Solutions class that has all of these people. You are right. Rotary Service Organization is that tool that kind of got me there.

Rushton (32:09.056)
And so in doing that, you can begin to encounter people on a regular basis who have all of these rather amazing ideas. So, for example, and I should say, I am in an online and asynchronous Rotary club, the Rotary E club of Silicon Valley. And if that's a mouthful, then just go to Rotary .Cool. That'll get you there. That'll do it. So then you start saying, like, well, who have they talked to?

Seth Fleischauer (32:31.178)
Hehehehehe

Rushton (32:37.204)
Two examples from this year.

Sareeqa Khanwalkar in Delhi, right? And she's part of an organization called Rainforest Connection. And they develop these devices that they put in the canopy of trees, solar powered devices that take in audio and use AI to assess what species are we hearing, right? In terms of the sounds. So they're able to do some really cool things on that front. But they can also tell when it's hearing like a chainsaw or a truck or a gunshot. And now the people who are in charge of protecting these

Seth Fleischauer (33:06.368)
Hmm.

Rushton (33:09.458)
these spaces can handle much, much larger expanses of territory. That's inspiring, right? Just a few weeks ago, we talked with Jacqueline and Alexa Child in Colorado. So,

Seth Fleischauer (33:12.882)
Hmm.

Rushton (33:23.872)
their sisters and one of them had, has had this, this rather significant medical issue for the last 10 years, right? And so she goes through high school, she goes through college. Those are good environments really for, for people who are navigating what it means to have, you know, certain kinds of, you know, differing abilities. And, and then she's out in, in a post -educational world and she's doing things like wanting to meet people. So she goes on dating apps and, and one of the things about having a certain, certain range of disabilities.

is that you're always kind of in that, when do I do the reveal about the challenge that I have?

Seth Fleischauer (33:59.424)
Hmm.

Rushton (34:01.888)
And in talking with her sister about this, they were like, let's create a new app. And so they did. And boom, they get two or 300 people that they know and know who they know and stuff like that. And they're like, hey, that's great. And then news organizations pick it up, and now they're at 20 ,000. And people are really, really benefiting from this different approach.

to a dating app. That's amazing. That's cool. And I encounter these kinds of stories all the time as a result of being part of a service club that is dedicated to sharing inspiring stories. My nonprofit works on a project related to wildfire, right? I talked to this guy who, as a part of what he does, protecting the environment and especially protecting turtles.

Seth Fleischauer (34:39.902)
Hmm.

Rushton (34:53.632)
from crows, right?

He's like, all right, these are the kinds of things that become issues for these kinds of spaces. And they came up with this 3D printed turtle, fake turtle, that scares crows in a particular way, that allows the crow population, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And soon you're like, my god, A to B to C to D, and now we've got less of an issue with this and more of an ability to respond to wildfire that. And man, there are so many cool things.

Seth Fleischauer (35:07.518)
Eh.

Rushton (35:25.154)
out there and we don't encounter them enough. We just don't. And if we did, we'd be more in a frame of mind that was like, what could I make happen with these kids? I believe that.

Seth Fleischauer (35:35.872)
But great advice to teachers, I think, to just expand their horizons a little bit and learn about what is being done out there. You've provided us with some amazing examples of that just from your work here today. I think we, I'm realizing we never introduced you at the top of this. We've kind of pieced together a bio for you through the conversation, right? You're an education futurist. You are a teacher at Huniper O. Sara School teaching this innovative program.

Rushton (35:52.256)
Yeah, all right.

Nice.

Seth Fleischauer (36:05.584)
called Creative Solutions for the Global Good. You are the founder of NextVista .org. Did we miss anything about your bio?

Rushton (36:15.104)
yeah, so like we didn't cover that I married up. We didn't.

Seth Fleischauer (36:22.014)
Heheheheh

Rushton (36:23.392)
We didn't talk about a fascination with languages or what it means to sit on the couch with a cat purring in the lap and doing Duolingo. We didn't talk about that, but we could have. I think that at core, what we want is to hear about ideas and have those ideas not just appeal to our heads, but our hearts as well. And when we're in that kind of space, we're willing to act on them in such a way that will make a difference in the lives of the children that we're charging.

with educating and I think that that's how all of these different pieces come together to allow us to stop and go you know how cool that we get to be people who do this kind of work.

Seth Fleischauer (37:05.408)
And our heart is what drove so many of us here in the first place, right? So it's easy when you're burning out to forget to bring that part of yourself to what you do. Beautifully said. Sorry, last, last question. Any book recommendations?

Rushton (37:15.136)
Rotary .cool. Right, right. There you go.

Rushton (37:23.57)
Let's see. I have been much more about podcasts than I have books over the last few years, actually. And I don't know if that's just an outcome of having more of a commute than I did in the past or what. But I would say that there are some really, really good stories out there through podcasts. The one that kind of arguably set me on the podcast thing completely was an episode of

of Ed Surge, the Ed Surge broadcast with Jeff Young. And that episode was titled something very close to, is it still teaching if the professor is dead? man. You know, like talk about asking these great questions about, you know, what we're trying to do and why and how it matters. I mean, that's just beautiful stuff, right? I mean, you know, it's.

Seth Fleischauer (38:08.16)
listen to that one.

Rushton (38:23.422)
Kind of macabre, but still. I think that by seeking out stories, whether it's a book or a podcast, and we get into that kind of space where we have the chance to really hear about people who see the world differently than the standard media approaches would suggest is the impenetrable, dominant kind of way is good for us.

Seth Fleischauer (38:50.592)
It's funny you mentioned Jeff Young. I just reached out to him and he's coming on my other podcast soon called Wide Distance Learning. So I'm excited about that. I'm also a fan of his podcast. Well, thank you, Rushin. Where can our listeners find you on the internet?

Rushton (38:57.448)
Nice.

Rushton (39:08.864)
So the benefit of having a really unusual name, Rushden Hurley, I think there's one of me in the world. So there you go. And I hear you. I hear you. So a Google search is probably one way to get to me. But nextvista .org is one way to see some of the stuff I'm involved with. I post a thing.

Seth Fleischauer (39:18.048)
Yeah, one Seth Bly shower too.

Rushton (39:32.03)
every week during the school year called the Next Vista inspiring video. And we highlight it on the on the homepage of nextvista .org. And it's a very, very cool short video that I write just a little bit about and offer some discussion or writing prompts, you know, that one might use alongside it. Just that's the kind of stuff that I think people could look at and get a good feel for who I am. You can also find me on LinkedIn, but I don't spend a ton of time there. And I've

And I've actually kind of peeled myself almost completely off of everything else in terms of social media. It's just not where I want to spend my time.

Seth Fleischauer (40:09.791)
Yeah, I'm feeling on that. Well, Rustin, thank you so much for your time, your candor today. I really appreciate you coming on. For our listeners, if you'd like to support the podcast, please follow us or leave a rating, a review, tell a friend. Thank you as always to our editor, Lucas Salazar, and my advisor, Deirdre Marlo. And please remember that if you want to bring positive change to education, you must first make it mindful. See you next time.