Make It Mindful: An Education Podcast

Seth Fleischauer (00:00.865)
Hello everyone and welcome to Make It Mindful, the podcast where we explore how to keep schools relevant by looking through the lens of mindfulness and asking the question, what's really worth paying attention to here? My name is Seth Fleishauer. My co-host Lauren Pinto is on a break. But together we delve into the world of education by interviewing changemakers and focusing on practical transformative solutions for teaching. And this week our guest is Jed Stefanowicz. Welcome Jed.

Jed Stefanowicz (00:30.839)
Awesome, thank you Seth. Perfect pronunciation too, it rhymes with banana wits. It always works, you can tell I'm.

Seth Fleischauer (00:33.813)
Rhymes with banana wits. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. Thanks for being here. You know, we met a few months ago. We had some great conversations about what you are up to in the Northeast there. So I was very interested in having you come on and share some of your insights, especially around AI, which is something that you've been doing a lot of thinking about, but also around your work at Creating.

Jed Stefanowicz (00:37.746)
Elementary educator at heart, right? Thanks for having me.

Seth Fleischauer (01:02.401)
content making spaces in schools. And that's a little bit of your background. So maybe I stole some of your bio there, but could you please introduce yourself to our audience?

Jed Stefanowicz (01:13.786)
Yeah, sure thing. And you're right, I have been doing a lot of thinking and hopefully more thinking than talking about AI and we'll talk about why I think that's important. But yes, my name is Jed Stefanowicz. Right now I'm the Director of Digital Learning and Innovation at a regional school district, Neshoba Regional School District here in Massachusetts. And before that, I was a digital learning coach for six years. Before that, I was a digital

taught third grade for 22 years, and before that I was a child. So this is the only thing I've done, and this is, you know, where I belong. And I'm pleased to hear kind of one of your subtitles of this is the, was it changemakers? Was that the word you used? Changemakers. So between changemakers and mindfulness, I love that we're talking about the human side. And even though my world has always kind of intersected with technology.

Seth Fleischauer (01:45.475)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (01:57.141)
Yep, that's in there, yeah.

Jed Stefanowicz (02:09.646)
we're talking about how we're using that technology and how that integration really, at the end of the day, is about student learning. And sometimes that gets overlooked. So I'm glad to have this conversation with you.

Seth Fleischauer (02:20.277)
Absolutely. And I feel like we're speaking the same language here. This is a lot of stuff that I talk about in terms of mindfully applying technology to the classroom. That is my favorite way to apply technology to the classroom. But this podcast is called Make It Mindful. Right out the gate, what does it mean to mindfully apply technology to a given classroom?

Jed Stefanowicz (02:45.598)
Well, I mean, there's so many different ideas of what mindfulness looks like, whether it's breathing exercises or whether it's being intentional about our decision-making, our spending, the pedagogical choices, the instructional lifts. And that's kind of where, where my mojo is, is beyond thinking about what are the devices we're using, right? And especially post COVID, um, where we're seeing a lot of pushback or a lot of.

I would hopefully it's a back swing, not a back slide, that kind of rejection of classroom technology. I think it's a really interesting time, whether it's the coaching or whether it's the leadership role. For me, the mindfulness is about the intentionality. And that's kind of what my new book is about is being intentional, being thoughtful, being purposeful and really, like I said, at the end of the day, having it be authentic integration for the short people in the room.

Seth Fleischauer (03:43.213)
So children and short teachers. Is that who? Yeah, okay. So I think about this sometimes, the idea of being intentional about your application of technology. Does it matter to you what the intention is? Right? Because you can imagine a situation where there are some pretty misguided

Jed Stefanowicz (03:45.351)
Okay, sure.

Seth Fleischauer (04:06.365)
intentions of any given teacher, whether it be because they're young or they're burned out or, you know, maybe they're stuck in a system of reaction rather than response. Do you work with people on the intention behind the technology at all? Or are you just starting with their intention and then saying, okay, that's your intention, I have to assume that is authentic and I will go from there?

Jed Stefanowicz (04:30.712)
That's a good question. And part of it, it's kind of a coaching classic, right, is to not lead with what my agenda is, but really figure out where someone's coming from and what is it that they're trying to do, whether it's the, what's the thing behind the thing. And yeah, if it's, you know, if someone's doing a strictly a word processing project that they've done for 25 years, I would push to stretch it a little bit. But that's kind of an interesting.

way of approaching it. It's kind of been my secret way in is to target those teachers. It's interesting that you talked about young teachers or burned out teachers and then everywhere in between kind of the unfair rap that new or younger teachers with maybe more technological savvy, there's this unfair advantage that somehow they're going to have the pedagogical knowledge to know how to be more intentional whether and then you've

Jed Stefanowicz (05:23.758)
pros at their craft and an unfair expectation perhaps for them to have learned everything that comes along. You turn away for five minutes and then your neighbors are all using Blookit and you're like, where did that come from? You know what I mean? So there's an interesting piece there. But yeah, I would say my gateway in is to always kind of start with the project, start with the vision of what a teacher is trying to do and really stretch that out and then ask, okay.

And that's why I called my book Beyond the Bulletin Board, because if they're truly just word processing and they're hanging that same thing on the bulletin board that they've been hanging for 25 years, okay, I'm not gonna say let's rip that down, but what I would say is how can we increase that audience? Who are you making that printed class book for? Can we think about re-imagining what the student publishing looks like? And then that gets to the intentionality of, okay, what's the purpose of student publishing? What are we trying to do?

And then at the end of the day, the kind of core principles of making that thinking and understanding, demonstrating that learning publicly, now we've got different tools to do that. So in a lot of ways, the intention might be the same as just the tools that we have can really broaden the reach and we have those powerful tools in our pockets.

Seth Fleischauer (06:30.41)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (06:38.965)
And so I'm hearing a little bit of your personal philosophy in here because you're talking about using technology, students using technology to create content in lots of different media. You're also talking about using technology to expand the audience, right? The connectivity that technology can bring. Are there other categories of application that you work in when it comes to mindfully applying technology to education?

Jed Stefanowicz (07:07.15)
Well, you know, of course, looking from an inclusive and an equitable point of view, really how are we engaging every student in the room? So the engagement itself from a mindfulness point of view, but also really hearing from every voice. You know, I remember when I was learning to be a teacher back in the 1900s, and there was that idea of, do you remember what every student was wearing today? And if you don't, that meant you weren't paying enough attention.

And I would stretch that map, right? But now I'd stretch it and say, well, what I'd say now is let's stretch that to have you heard from every student today. And then, so taking that, right? And having heard from every student doesn't mean that they have to raise their hand because that's about that teacher's agenda. That's not about how you're engaging that student. So how do we think about hearing from students and how do we invite them to engage? And so from a mindfulness point of view, that way,

Seth Fleischauer (07:35.334)
I'm terrible at that. I just don't know it at close. I don't know

Seth Fleischauer (07:45.857)
Hmm, that's better.

Jed Stefanowicz (08:05.827)
And that's where I think there's a UDL and that's where I think actually AI can be, can be, doesn't mean it automatically is, a tool to stretch some of that thinking and expand the ways that we engage students.

Seth Fleischauer (08:17.965)
Okay, so you just used two abbreviations, UDL, Universal Design for Learning and AI, Artificial Intelligence. What is the intersection between those two things from your perspective?

Jed Stefanowicz (08:29.506)
Well, I am a teacher and we do love our acronym, so you'll have to excuse. Uh, there isn't, you know, it's not an obvious intersection. And when we, but when we look at the kind of core principles of UDL, universal design for learning, it's those multiple modes of expression, representation, um, engagement, right, action and expression. Um, that I think is where we're hopefully at the phase of the AI integrating into classrooms.

Seth Fleischauer (08:32.339)
I'm gonna go.

Jed Stefanowicz (08:59.106)
There's that quote, Belsky, I don't remember his first name, but what he said was that novelty precedes utility in reference to AI. And I think we've been now in a year, year and a half of we're hopefully crossing that novelty period where everyone goes and they do the amazing things that AI can do. And now we're thinking more about, okay, what's the utility? And that's where you see products that are kind of rising up is that they're the utility that we're

Seth Fleischauer (09:07.327)
Mm-hmm.

Jed Stefanowicz (09:27.938)
thinking about integrating are those ways to, how do we broaden the engagement? How do we broaden the expression? How do we use AI to give us additional ideas that either we might not have thought of? Now, when we introduce that tool, I think we introduce potential pitfalls as well. Or when we introduce those shortcuts, I think that can come at a cost too. So like I said, I've been doing a lot of thinking as well as a lot of talking, because it's exciting and it's great and you can, you know.

with a couple of presses of a button. You can take a standard and have it build your units and your slides and your bulletin board ideas and your extension ideas, and you can level up and level down, and you can suddenly reach and teach every student in the classroom, maybe in a way better than that classroom teacher would be able to do on their own, but I wonder if there's something, if there's a cost to that process.

Seth Fleischauer (10:20.373)
What do you wonder the cost is?

Jed Stefanowicz (10:23.842)
Well, I mean, I think one piece is, yes, it does save time for the teacher, right? Where, and I like that idea of giving teachers back their time to pay attention to the more important parts of our craft. But I wonder if there will be this kind of general erosion of a teacher's subject matter knowledge or their content expertise if the AI is taking...

you know, okay, what are the next two weeks of my unit? And I think a skilled teacher, I don't think it's gonna happen with a skilled teacher. But, you know, when you're having AI do the lesson planning in place of perhaps the research and learning you would be doing, I just wonder if there's an erosion of that process. I know it's one of those things in five years, we may look back and say, huh, you know, we had these really rapid fire, really, there's an increased depth of learning.

I think in some cases where we're thinking of all these different ways of engaging students and different ways of asking students to demonstrate their learning and where AI is maybe giving us multiple ways of doing that, which is awesome. But I do wonder if, I don't know, that's why I really wrestle with it because, you know, it's giving, I think a classroom teacher maybe ideas that they wouldn't have come up with on their own. So that's great. But is it doing some of that lift for the teacher that then they don't have to do it on their own?

i don't know it's a little bit interesting

Seth Fleischauer (11:54.097)
Yeah, I mean, when I think about it, the teachers that I work with, it's interesting when you have veteran teachers who are not necessarily afraid of the technology. They know how to use it. They're experimenting with it. But the answers that they get from it, there is an inherent skepticism that is born of decades of experience and an ability to analyze the answer.

in a way that you can only do so if you are a subject matter expert. And I think about the new teachers coming up and the allure of being able to lean on this technology to do, you know, to make you more effective sooner, right? But the question there is, are they going to be able to?

exercise that critical thinking to understand what a good response is or not or will it even matter in five years because the tech is going to be so good that they'll be able to guess whatever context is necessary in order to produce the best possible answer. I mean, right now there's so much that goes into prompt engineering and giving it the right context and asking it to assume a persona and all this work that is the science of the now. But

Will that be necessary? And ultimately, how much does any of it matter because it's coming anyway, right? So like that same fear that people had of like the internet ruining, like Wikipedia being rife with misinformation, which is hilarious given that it's the most trusted source on the internet now. The rest of the internet is the problem. But that initial fear of the internet, and I do think that this is a different technology, right? It's uniquely human.

Jed Stefanowicz (13:33.516)
Right.

Seth Fleischauer (13:45.221)
this generative AI, the way that it can speak to you, the way that getting to know these tools is kind of like getting to know a person, that the most effective way to work with it is to learn about it, to learn it, and how it responds to different scenarios. So I think that there are some fundamental differences here, but I do wonder if this is just, if we're just watching change happen, right? Like you're worrying that there's, that...

there could be these pernicious effects of the technology, but ultimately, is it just how it's going to unfold?

Jed Stefanowicz (14:21.942)
Mm, pernicious, exactly. And I think you answered and asked the same question that I think we're going around and around. It's funny that you use the phrase uniquely human because that's when I talk with teachers or at workshops, I kind of use that phrase. What are the uniquely human processes that are either being skipped, short-cutted, or...

Seth Fleischauer (14:24.869)
Laughter

Jed Stefanowicz (14:48.618)
You know, and it does go back to that validation of the skilled teacher who looks at the information that comes back and then gives it that glance over or hopefully knows whether that information is valid or not or how they're then going to. And I think what it speaks to is using the tool as your starting point. And inevitably, you know, I either have something explained better, gone a little deeper, it gives me extra ideas, but it's that starting point and it's not doing the work for me.

but it's extending the thinking. And that's where Greg Kulowick was the first one I heard use the phrase thought partner. And I really, for me, that makes a lot of sense as a thought partner because it's an exchange, right? So yeah, the uniquely human piece, we can't skip that human in the room ever.

Seth Fleischauer (15:36.937)
Yeah, you know, when we've talked, you've talked about AI serving as a tool, the idea that it shouldn't detract from what the essence of quality education is. I'm wondering, you know, how can we modify our teaching approaches to prepare students for this AI-influenced world, right? So like this is coming. Like what do we need?

do we need to teach them anything, right? There's a point of view of Justin Reich, who's on the podcast recently, he was talking about how not too many schools necessarily suffer from not being early tech adopters, right, from sitting back and waiting to watch and see what happens and then jump in once the technology's fleshed out a bit. But it feels like there's this anxiety right now with a lot of, especially tech forward teachers.

or like, oh my God, not only is this here now impacting the world, but it's changing at a potentially exponential rate. Like I would be doing an absolute disservice to my students if I did not prepare them for this world where this is going to have, continue to have a major impact. So where do you see that? Like what is our responsibility as educators to shift what we're doing in order to accommodate for these coming changes?

Jed Stefanowicz (17:07.174)
The healthy skepticism that you talked about, I think, is a really key factor. And Justin Reich is such, I'm so glad that you had him on recently, and I can't wait to go back and listen. I could listen to him talk all day. And he would talk all day. I had the pleasure of seeing him twice in the past month in person. And every time I talk, I...

Seth Fleischauer (17:17.297)
Oh yeah, that's right, you introduced me to him. Thank you.

Jed Stefanowicz (17:29.298)
he's so easy to talk to and listen to, but he's also one of the smartest humans and you know, you've ever talked to. And he's like, he really pushes your thinking, um, at, in a very research based strong way, but also in a really normal human way that always has kind of that student centered focus. Right. So I think to get back to your question, um, how to get back to that, the essence, I think the healthy skepticism asking the.

Seth Fleischauer (17:37.002)
Yeah.

Jed Stefanowicz (17:57.354)
The challenging questions, and it doesn't mean we can answer them. What it means is, like you said, it's already here. It's going to increasingly be everywhere. So that requires us to ask those questions. And I think asking them collectively, trying to come up with answers specific to our own context, whether it's our school, whether it's setting guidelines, I think it's still early for policy. But, you know, guardrails and guidelines, I think, are really important to have.

an approach. So moving from the skeptical questions, which are, you know, like we were saying, what's lost in the process? Really, how does it ultimately impact student learning? What are the Are we what are the tools that we're using it and are they supporting the teacher or the teaching? Not that one is better than the other but that gets to the intentionality of why we're using the tool And then moving toward a more optimistic approach

And that's where I think from the skeptical view can grow us into the more intentional integration oriented questions. Where, okay, how might AI enable or extend student understanding? Or how can it be integrated into lessons to promote more personalized learning? Or engage the learners who might not otherwise be, you know, eyes up or engaged in whatever metric the classroom.

teachers looking for to measure the engagement of the students. So I think, you know, and it is more, I think, optimistic. How can we use, you know, the emerging tools to give more timely targeted specific feedback? And that's a really complex question because, you know, it brings up equity questions too. Are, if you're in a district that's locked and blocked versus one that isn't, are those graduates leaving?

We just heard a DLCon talk about it, I think, just this past weekend, where graduates are getting to college and some with a huge leg up that others haven't. But even within one classroom, students have with tools in their pocket and the student at the desk next door without that tool in their pocket, do they have that personal tutor? And if that personal tutor is giving specific targeted feedback, that...

Jed Stefanowicz (20:22.406)
might honestly be better than better than waiting for the teacher's feedback, but maybe even better than the teacher's feedback because it's instant, it's there, it just raises questions. And again, I don't think they're easy questions to answer, but I think they're really important questions to talk about.

Seth Fleischauer (20:41.025)
So speaking of questions, you have written about five critical questions for evaluating AI and education. I'm going to read them here, but I'd love to hear your rationale about these set of five being the five, right? Okay. So what human processes are being automated? Does their automation result in a loss of educational value?

Jed Stefanowicz (20:57.246)
Yeah, and I think these are the skeptical ones.

Seth Fleischauer (21:09.081)
Is AI functioning as a support for teachers or as a direct teaching mechanism? And that's what you were just mentioning. What is the impact on student learning? And how could it foster a deeper understanding or enhance assessment methods? So you arrived at these five. In your mind, how are these like the be all and end all? Like why stop at five? Why have these five? Like tell me about your thinking.

Jed Stefanowicz (21:15.286)
Hmm.

Jed Stefanowicz (21:36.322)
Yeah, well, they're definitely not the be all end all and they're not the biggest, but I think they're the good first ones because it engages people in the room and engages multiple players in the room. And you know, just like if you've seen Matt Miller's scale of, you know, how much what's cheating kind of wears your line on that ladder. I love that because it's a way of engaging people who aren't the tech people in your building aren't just the administrators.

Seth Fleischauer (21:54.262)
Mm-hmm.

Jed Stefanowicz (22:04.578)
but invites people into the conversation. And I think these questions, so, you know, the first one, what human processes are being automated? So, okay, if there is that goal of reclaiming teacher's time, you know, kind of keep it surface level there. Okay, great. But again, what's being shaved off and what is the teacher not doing that, you know, and by not doing that, is there a cost? So that leads to the second one.

which was does that automation result in that loss of educational value? So I never like hearing that idea of a shortcut because a shortcut seems to me like, you know, you're skipping something. If you're, if you're increasing the efficacy, if you are giving the teacher time to divert to more useful, uh, you know, cognitive tasks, um, then there's value in it. But I liked that idea of the added value versus the shortcut or the loss.

Is AI functioning as a support for teachers or as the teaching mechanism? Again, that's the supporting the teacher or the teaching and that's where it's pretty interesting to look at the emerging leaders that have Figured out how to have more student-facing Right. So for there I think about magic student and I think about school AI and by the time this airs who knows? There might be three others right because everyone seems to be coming up with them, but there's a reason I think that

Seth Fleischauer (23:26.317)
Thanks for watching!

Jed Stefanowicz (23:29.782)
that those are the leaders. And I think it has to do with the accessibility and the on-ramp for the general classroom teacher and not just the tech specialist in the building. And I'll come back to that. What's the impact on student learning? I mean, obviously that's what it's all about. If there isn't an impact, if it's just administrative tasks, I think then we're stuck in the novelty before the utility phase. And yes, the wow before the how is great. And wow is it.

awesome, but it doesn't get to the how and doesn't get to the utility. And I don't think it's a more sustainable view in a way that's going to shift the teaching that's happening. And then how can it foster the deeper understanding or enhance the assessment? I think that is those next set of the more optimistic questions that I was talking about, where it's more extending learning, supporting interaction, supporting ways that we, and that's the UDL part of it too, right?

How are we adding opportunities for expression? How are we widening the walls to increase engagement and produce the different pathways for students to demonstrate what they're doing?

Seth Fleischauer (24:38.173)
Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, just really, it really speaks to the fact that the like any piece of technology, this is a tool. And the thinking that goes into the tool is everything. Like, like, you can't just take a hammer and throw it around randomly and hope to build a house, right? Like you've got to have some thinking behind what you're doing. And it's I talked to a bunch of different

Jed Stefanowicz (25:03.47)
Thanks for watching!

Seth Fleischauer (25:05.205)
people in the ed tech world and it seems like no matter what the tool is, so much of the professional development is like, well, let's just talk about what good teaching is. Let's just back up there. And then if you do that, our tools great for you. But if you don't do that, we've noticed our tools not that great. And I think that like, you know, sorry, yeah.

Jed Stefanowicz (25:23.838)
Well, I was just going to say it's such a simple, but such a powerful sequence. It's such a flip where, because what you're talking about is leading with the, with the intention, right? Leading with the learning and let the tool follow. And, you know, if I think about FATC and ISTE in the past year and how many hundreds of sessions were AI sessions and they were all like wine tastings and they were all, well, try this, try this. And have you heard of this? Have you heard of this? And they weren't about wine.

pairings and that's what you're talking about. So now you know I'm leading a staff meeting tomorrow afternoon and for this middle school it's I'm introducing for the first time this idea of wine pairings because you know okay is it lead with the use case I want to translate a document great let's go with that singular task here's the tool I'd use for that here I want to extend or differentiate a quiz okay this is the tool I might use for that

Now I want to think about fleshing out my unit design. Here's the tool I might use for that. But just that idea of leading with what's the use case rather than leading with the tool, it switches it from a training staff meeting where you're immediately, people literally are opening their lids to block you, to really use case and it's conversations. And it's, again, it invites different people in the room to think about.

Seth Fleischauer (26:36.009)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (26:41.837)
I'm out.

Jed Stefanowicz (26:48.578)
The things that they're already doing, they've always had to do as highly skilled teachers. And now we have tools to maybe support that differently. It's a lot different from, I'm gonna train you how to use Diffit or Brisk or Magic School or whatever.

Seth Fleischauer (27:01.737)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a more learner-centered approach, right? I do want to shift gears a little bit here. In your book, Beyond the Bolton Board, one of the things that you most fiercely advocate for, much like Trevor Soponis, who has been on this podcast who I introduced you to, is about placing student voice and agency at the forefront of educational strategies. I'm wondering why you believe student agency is so essential,

I'm not suggesting that it's not. However, I do wonder if there's a possibility of like a pendulum swing too far in a certain direction, right? There's a certain amount of, like, although we don't no longer have like the teacup method of education where there's a teacup full of knowledge and we're pouring it into our students, there's something to be said for certain processes, certain ways of doing things, certain knowledge being

passed down from those who have it to those who don't. And while student agency is something that I think in the traditional methods of schooling was way too ignored, I wonder if there's a danger of venturing too far in the direction of student agency and making it so that when kids get to the real world and they're like, wait a minute.

Jed Stefanowicz (28:12.63)
Thank you.

Seth Fleischauer (28:28.837)
I can't control everything in my entry level job. This is boring. I'm going to go somewhere else and do something else. Maybe that's the point. Maybe that's the point is that when you give students agency, they demand change of a society that is not built around some of our better ideals maybe. But I don't know. There was a lot there.

Jed Stefanowicz (28:37.006)
Thank you.

Seth Fleischauer (28:53.565)
respond. No, and I look like honestly, like Deirdre Marlowe, she listens to this podcast and gives me feedback sometimes. And she I am I am giving her voice right now. And it's a she she's a big fan of the classics. I talked to several people who are big fan of like classical education and, you know, not totally abandoning what has worked.

Jed Stefanowicz (28:53.74)
Yeah, tell me how you really think.

Seth Fleischauer (29:21.321)
from the traditional educational system. And I know that as I work with students in Taiwan, there's a certain amount of traditional approaches that we take with these students because they are used to that and it works for them in their setting, right? And there are certain students for whom it does work, right? But I'm also, you know, in other circles and in other conversations, I'm the radical pushing the student agency thing. So, but I'd love to hear your perspective on it so that I can borrow your words the next time I'm arguing with Deirdre.

Jed Stefanowicz (29:51.99)
Sure, I can't imagine now having met Deirdre, I can't imagine you ever argue. But I will say, I think, you know, you kind of put the answer or I found the answer kind of hidden in your something you said, which was or at least the answer for me. And you know, so yes, this is the book Beyond the Bulletin Board, Crafting a Culture of Content Creation. And Dr. Michael Connor was nice enough to give early praise and be a reviewer.

Seth Fleischauer (29:56.897)
Hehehehe

Seth Fleischauer (30:08.382)
Okay.

Jed Stefanowicz (30:20.754)
And he kind of said, this is Dewey 101. And I love that he said that in the context of a technology integration idea, because it wasn't about the tools, it was about the teaching. And when you talked about student agency and the pendulum, right, you said, well, what's gonna happen when these kids reach the real world? And that's where I'm gonna pause and say, well, there's the split right there. Why is it that...

Right? Their experience in the classroom is so separate from the real world. Why isn't it that we're not, that the classroom doesn't reflect the real world? And that is what, you know, my kind of mission as a teacher, a coach, now an administrator, is to have our classrooms really reflect the real world so that when they do leave school and they graduate and they go to college or they go to the workforce, the real world suddenly isn't slapping them in the face. And they're

they're being met with that brick wall. But they are, that's where I think, you know, everyone has their portrait of a graduate. That's where I think it can be a lot deeper than just that poster on the wall. And we can push past the poster, because I love my alliteration too, that the portrait of a graduate and those competencies, we're really being honest about what those competencies are. We're really being honest and hearing from graduates that what didn't you get when you left? What aren't we giving you?

And that is, I think, what can lead. And that's what becomes real about student agency, rather than just, you know, because I think what you're talking about is examples of student agency, which are not really at the heart of what student agency is all about. And I'll tell you, five years ago, we had a really hard time saying what student agency was, what it looked like, it was a little more of a buzzword. And then COVID came along.

And then students came back to school and teachers lost their minds and said that their students kind of forgot how to do school. They forgot how to walk in line. They'd never been on a field trip. They didn't know how to take turns. And what we're finding was that loss of agency. And that I think was a way that I'd been able to have student agency go from being this kind of ambiguous concept to something that was a really tangible thing.

Jed Stefanowicz (32:44.138)
that teachers could latch onto. And then it gave us areas to work and had nothing to do with technology. It had to do with what's the community building in the classroom, how are students, the students who might've been more engaged at home in hybrid and remote, and now they came back and they were met with this kind of disconnect. And I think what it did was it gave some bones and real tangible ways of

saying what student agency is isn't. And, you know, for me, learning loss was never something that made any sense to me. It was something that vendors on the in the trade shows were using to sell products. What we were really talking about was the loss of student agency and teacher agency too, as a matter of fact.

Seth Fleischauer (33:21.302)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (33:31.393)
So let's just back up a little bit so you can connect these dots for me like what is agency to you?

Jed Stefanowicz (33:37.69)
Ooh, that's tough one. It's student empowerment. It's students feeling engaged. It's students feeling like they have some, either control in the direction of their learning, but they have some control in the expression of their learning too. And it's also being, there's the self-advocacy. Now it's interesting, because I'm coming, I'm a lifelong elementary educator.

So that student agency there is the ability to take turns, the ability to walk in line, the ability to make a choice on a choice board or acknowledge the fact that a choice board is not necessarily student choice or voice. It's one of three choices that the teacher has chosen rather than really chasing the student's passion area. Or at the middle high school level, it is really those passion projects. It is really that student who...

has historically been disengaged or honestly hates school and has been blamed themselves for it, it's giving them the ability to engage and or re-engage with school in a way that's empowering and it validates and affirms their identity but it also validates and affirms the learning process too.

Seth Fleischauer (34:51.788)
So would you say that it's then the ability to act on your opinions, passions, and identity? Is that about right?

Jed Stefanowicz (35:06.03)
And to know that and to have those matter because if they don't matter then it's just baloney. And that's more about the ecosystem than it is about that student.

Seth Fleischauer (35:06.355)
So.

Seth Fleischauer (35:17.577)
And so do you see it mattering in the real world agency?

Jed Stefanowicz (35:30.098)
I do. And I'll give you an example of a recent graduate named Sophie Smith, who I met at FETC. And I might.

Seth Fleischauer (35:42.321)
and who you introduced me to and who has been on the podcast.

Jed Stefanowicz (35:45.406)
All right, so you know, wow, I introduce you to two home runs, right? So that's a great example of, of agency, student agency, because, you know, what began as, as her kind of bailing on an assignment through TikTok became what is now her, you know, she's the CEO of a company, she's the exact age of my daughter graduated from college last year, and they just got their million dollar seed round in there. She has, you know, overseeing this really impressive

Seth Fleischauer (36:08.947)
Yeah.

Jed Stefanowicz (36:13.442)
company and organization that's mission oriented. And it's really an impressive thing. And that's what I think about that agency is the ability to make it happen.

Seth Fleischauer (36:22.781)
Yeah, and I think that I think you're absolutely right with someone like Sophie, right, where she was able to put together her skills, her interest, her passion, her courage, to be able to take agency and make it work for her in the real world. And I wonder if the style of education that prioritizes student agency is isn't necessarily a philosophy that we should apply to everyone.

but it's one that works really well for some kids and not as well for other kids.

Jed Stefanowicz (36:58.238)
Yeah, I'll concede. I hear where you're going. And I'll say uncle, but I will say, you know, no matter how much the revolutionaries, you know, the pendulum is not going to swing too far. Don't worry, because the measures we have in place are always going to be rooted in the standards and, you know, the metrics that the districts need in the standardized tests that are going to be rooted in such a way that are in some ways antithetical to the...

Seth Fleischauer (37:03.553)
Hahaha

Seth Fleischauer (37:10.337)
Hahaha

Jed Stefanowicz (37:28.107)
the crusaders of agency that hopefully there's going to be a good balance. Those who need the nuts and bolts, it's going to be there. The foundational work will be there so that the dreamers like you and me can fly high or so feature.

Seth Fleischauer (37:32.446)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (37:43.865)
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think of, because I'm doing a lot of thinking throughout my career about like, what can, how can we make this better? Right? Like this, our system is clearly broken. There are legions of students who are disengaged and who think that school is not for them. How can we take that, change it and make it so that they feel like learning is a benefit? And I think that the answer for me over and over again is like, it depends.

It depends on who it is, on what their culture is, on what their preferences are. You know, I just think about my own family. I have two kids. My son is absolutely a Sophie Smith, right? Like I could see him, first of all, really struggling in a system where he was asked to like do exactly what the teacher was asking him to do and really thriving in a system where he's given certain parameters but can explore at will within those parameters.

my daughter gets overwhelmed with choice and really excels at doing what people ask her to do and doing it well. And I think about just at my own company, like there are certain roles where I want people to be absolute free thinkers and bring creative energy and make things and break molds. And other people whose job it is to like keep the foundation.

where it is. And I yeah, yeah. And so I think that like, I, I sometimes need to check my own romanticism when it comes to what I think education could become or should be or, you know, because I, that, that student agency piece, that student centered piece that like letting kids just drive like that entrepreneurial spirit, like that is so enticing and it, and it resonates with me.

Jed Stefanowicz (39:13.456)
So I'm gonna keep the trains running on time no doubt, right

Seth Fleischauer (39:41.569)
But I try to check myself and remember that that's not necessarily the answer for everybody.

Jed Stefanowicz (39:48.946)
It isn't the answer for everybody. And that goes back to, you know, at the beginning of your, of your rant, I mean, the beginning of your last comment, you, you talked about, you talked about, you know, maybe school isn't for everyone. And that's, that's the truth. And, but instead of trying to change their mind, it's trying to, you know, how do you change the system or how do you change that and knowing that maybe you're not going to change the system, how do you change the trajectory for that one student? And I don't think it's, it's romanticism to.

Seth Fleischauer (39:57.274)
Ha ha

Seth Fleischauer (40:15.629)
Mm-hmm.

Jed Stefanowicz (40:18.326)
to think that we have the power to do that. But those levers don't fit for all, right? But for someone for whom school isn't for them, can you make their experience matter? Can you make school for them? Can you make their experience for them? That's supporting the student agency. That's voice and choice for real. And that's, at the end of the day, it's also mindfulness because you're supporting that student and it is student-centered.

Um, yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (40:50.301)
Yeah, thank you for bringing me a full circle there. You know, I also think that it's a real opportunity for this new technology, right? Personalization of learning is, uh, is one of the applications that we're seeing right out the gate, and I imagine that it's only going to get better. Uh, so a teacher being able to, you know, I, uh, create a detailed profile of each of their students and then have a lesson plan and like feed those detailed profiles in there and be like, how should I approach this based on the, the interest abilities?

and you know inclinations of each of my students. I think that there's a lot of potential there and

Jed Stefanowicz (41:26.29)
And I say, don't let the machines do it, right? Don't let the AI do it. Have it be that partner because if, and it can be as simple as looking at personalized learning, which is a passive outcome, and just taking off one little letter D to have it personalize the learning, right? And that changes it from being the intended outcome or the optimistic outcome to really putting it on the teacher. And the teacher needs to be the one to personalize the learning for the student.

and technology can help, but we're hopefully not having technology take care of it for them.

Seth Fleischauer (41:55.102)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (42:00.709)
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much Jed for being here for sharing your expertise for your sharing your opinions, your candor for calling me out on my rant. I appreciate all of that last question. Where can our listeners find you on the internet?

Jed Stefanowicz (42:08.95)
Yeah

Jed Stefanowicz (42:16.894)
Thank you. First of all, thank you for having me and it's a great conversation. It goes by so fast. I've now talked to you a couple times and it's like we're old pals and we get it all worked up. You can find me or my books. I have a website, JedPD.com. Jed, that's me, PD for professional development.com and you can find my books and you know everything cool there is to know and my books are on Amazon. If you're interested in learning, you know...

Seth Fleischauer (42:27.217)
Hehehe

Jed Stefanowicz (42:45.27)
More about what we've talked about and I look forward to meeting you in person somewhere along the way Seth because I know It'd be cool to grab a bite

Seth Fleischauer (42:52.957)
Yeah, are you gonna be at ISTE, perchance? Hey, there you go. I'm going to a Rockies game the day before, you interested? Ha, ha, ha. All right, sounds good.

Jed Stefanowicz (42:54.555)
I will. I will.

Jed Stefanowicz (42:59.526)
I think I could be interested. We'll see. We'll talk. We'll talk offline. You can you can find me presenting in the playground on Monday afternoon. I just found out. So yes, I'll be presenting. So and yeah, maybe we can cook up a little something and hopefully doing a few podcasts to.

Seth Fleischauer (43:07.927)
Oh cool.

Seth Fleischauer (43:14.737)
Yeah, I'm presenting with my colleagues from CILC, my other podcast, Why Distance Learning, and we are presenting at the Denver Museum of Arts and Sciences. We are going to be recording a live podcast and having like training the audience on how to podcast and then having them interview us about our content providing of distance learning as the live podcast recording. It's going to be pretty cool. Yeah.

Jed Stefanowicz (43:38.122)
That is so cool. You know, when we first time we had a conversation we had talked about, I think I was introduced to you or vice versa about being on that podcast. And honestly, I'm glad I'm on I'm glad I'm on this one. This was the right choice. And if that's a cool museum, the last time is he was in Denver, I was in an event in that museum. And it was a wicked hailstorm and it was all coming in under the doors, they had to block the doors because these, you know, chunks of ice were raining down on like a 95 degree afternoon so

Seth Fleischauer (43:47.475)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (44:07.153)
Oh, hopefully no ice storm in June, but I look forward to meeting you in person. Thanks so much for being here. And for our listeners, if you'd like to support the podcast, please tell a friend, subscribe, leave a rating or a review. Thank you as always to our editor, Lucas Salazar. And remember that if you'd like to bring positive change to education, you must first make it mindful.

Jed Stefanowicz (44:07.318)
I have cool memories of that place.

Jed Stefanowicz (44:15.311)
All right, thank you so much.